I'm not certain if this is correct Mr H but as Churchill was a descendent of the Duke of Marlborough he may have had inherited money that enabled him to have Chartwell built. If not then as say where did the money come from?
That's right , he was hopeless at personal finances and also gambled. He came into an inheritance from some cousins which helped him out and borrowed from millionaire friends ( money goes to money eh). Also horror of horrors he had to ration himself to four cigars per day!!!!
Good point about the Battle for the North Atlantic.
During this period a REAL British hero emerged not a cigar puffing war mongering gambling creep who happened to be in the right place at the right time.
He worked on the Enigma code night after night sometimes shutting himself off from colleagues at Bletchley park code breaking centre and he and his colleagues cracked it and how many lives in terms of British and Allied merchantmen did his efforts save?
And how many supplies crossed the Atlantic unhindered when in 1940 and 1941 our merchant ships were being sunk rl and c.
This mans name was Alan Turing and he either committed suicide or was murdered in 1954.
He was homosexual which was illegal until 1967.
Its only been in recent years that Turings efforts have been recognised and yes regardless he IS a national hero.
My own personal British hero's are the ones like Turing who have saved lives not old warmongers who kill or order killings en mass.
Right where were we class....oh yes the Battle of the Atlantic.
Firstly the US never took over escort duties in the Western Approaches (the area were the Axis were most active) the actual breakdown was Royal Navy 50% Royal Canadian Navy 46% the USN the rest. Air cover was supplied by RAF and RN. A little snippet which you may find interesting was that the RN supplied ships and crews to help the US during the Battle of the Caribbean because of their anti submarine expertise.
Add to this the damage inflicted to the French navy in Tunisia by the RN ordered by Churchill in case it fell into German hands; the sinking of the German surfice raiders such as Bismark by the RN and RAF . Both of these threats could have made a big adverse impact if they had been deployed in the Atlantic.
Britain could properly have never have overcome Germany on its own that much is true. However if it had capitulated in 1940 neither America or the Soviet union would have come to or been able to liberate Western Europe. Whatever you think of the man it was Churchill that empowered the British people to hold out and keep fighting, convinced Roosevelt to adopt a deal with Hitler first policy. That alone is enough to earn him the title of a Great Briton.
You don't have to like him but as I said before all of us who live on this sceptred isle (to quote Shakespeare) and in Western Europe as a whole owe that man a debt of gratitude.
I’ve enjoyed reading the replies to this thread. Very interesting and thought provoking too.
D1 You’ve certainly made us all think a little bit more about our country, and all the basic stuff that was drummed into us all.
I’ll say this to you all, I’m not going to rubbish your individual posts. Your opinions are yours and I’ll respect them , even if I do disagree with some points.
For my own family, we sacrificed uncles during WW1 on the Somme, and other relatives joined up during WW2 and did their bit.
Now I’ve retired and I’ve more time on my hands, I’ve also been researching the things that interest or infuriate me.
As I mentioned before my family idolised Winston Churchill. They certainly believed that the sun shone out of his backside. He was the man who saved our country and empire; a great man, or so we are told.
If we seek out conventional information, via our newspapers, books on Churchill and Google what will we find. The truth?? No, because real information is strictly controlled. So how does this apply to our “Great Statesman” WS Churchill.
As I mentioned before Churchill was out of the political arena from 1930, till about 1938/39. He had no power or influence in Government. He was surviving on his meagre MP salary, keeping Chartwell, an enormous country estate going, paying Randolph’s gambling debts and paying the staff wages, about 20 or 30 people. He may certainly have borrowed money from relatives and he certainly had good wealthy connections. However the 1929/30 stock market crash wiped him out completely. He was completely and utterly ruined. He had certain financial debt obligations pressing down on him, so therefore for a short period of time he placed his “beloved Chartwell” on the market. He had to sell his house to meet his creditors.
He was however thrown a lifeline in 1936, by an influential group of industrialists and bankers who called themselves the focus group. These people funded him; they kept his head above water. Lack of funds wouldn’t be an issue for Churchill now.
In July 1936 the chairman of the British Shell petroleum company wrote out a cheque for Churchill for roughly £40,000 pounds, and gave it to him as a gift. So therefore he was bought and paid for by very wealthy men of influence.
From 1936 onwards he began to speak out against Germany, even though there was a great deal of pro German sentiment for Germany and “National Socialism”.
Edward the 8th who visited Germany in 1937, got on very well with Hitler, however Edward was forced to abdicate his throne by this same lobby of influential people, and these were the same people who had Winston Churchill firmly in their pocket, and they finally manoeuvred Churchill’s introduction into the cabinet and then finally his taking over as Prime Minister in 1940.
Churchill fought a war that England had no interest in. We should have let the Poles sort out their own problems with the Germans.
In 1940, England received very generous offers of peace from Hitler. There were talks going on, and Alan Kenneth Mackenzie Clark spoke about this during an interview years later. Germany did not want to go to war with England.
It’s my firm belief that Churchill was a traitor. He took us into a disastrous war and ruined our country. He knew very well that we were reading the ‘Ultra’ transcripts; our people were decoding these important messages very effectively.
In the USA Franklin D. Roosevelt had been forewarned about the Japanese attack in 1941. The American Congress was isolationist. They wanted no part in yet another European war. The December 7th attack on Pearl Harbour in 1941 gave Churchill just what he wanted an allied force against Germany.
I honestly believed Churchill was a great man. I certainly don’t feel that way now. It was a banker’s war pure and simple a little bit like the banker’s wars that are going on in the Middle East today. Very sad.
It's not the SIZE of the dog in the fight.............it's the size of the FIGHT in the dog that counts.
Er quite a bit actually.
As you said he was Prime Minister at the time so had the power to change the law or at least get legislation before parliament.
Turing was hounded by the law for no reason other than he was gay.
Ah but didn't dear Winnie have a very close ally a well know peer who was a rampant gay involved in untold sexual shenanigans with minors?
Yes I'm referring to the notorious Lord Robert Boothby but hang on a mo if Churchill had of changed the law then Boothby might have 'come out' and how embarrassing might that have been for your hero.
Oh and before you come back with your usual retort please don't insult mine Admins or anyone elses intelligence on this site by saying Churchill new nothing about Boothby's activities.
Blimey H, that's a conspiracy theory and a half, on a pair with those surrounding 9/11 and the moon landings. That aside do you really think that this country taking up arms against Hitler's Germany was unnecessary?
D1 I make no comment on whether WC knew about Boothby's activities or not as I can honestly say I've never heard of the bloke. What will say is the law hounded Alan Turing because homosexual activities were illegal at the time, looking back from these more enlightened times it seems barbaric but none the less in the 1950s it was illegal. Turing deserves all the accolades he gets for his work in WW2 and what happened to him was a great shame if WC could have put an end to that nonsense then looking back with hindsight he should have.
Thanks Mr H.
I didn't think for one moment this thread would go near viral.
My original point was why aren't kids now taught basic history ie the dates of major conflicts such as the two world wars or going back further when we united to become GB or the date of the Spanish Armada.
I knew most of this before I was 10 and Little Miss D1 has only just started learning these things.
Its her last year at junior school and I get on really well with her class teacher who like myself is a big history fan.
He believed her school had suffered an indirect hit from a WW2 bomb and there is evidence in the back of her school to support this in the form of holes in the wall which could well have been caused by fragments of a bomb which destroyed a building opposite the school. I did disagree with Little Miss D1's teachers verdict on the outcome of the Battle of Britain but it was a friendly exchange of views and no malice on either side.
I did read your post but if I may you made a very good comment of who are the real winners in any war.
Yes you got it spot on the bankers!
Fast Forward 18 years to 1963 and the day the various individuals came together to knock off JFK.
He had no intention of going to war in Vietnam and new it was a war the US couldn't win so he wanted the troops out and signed a declaration to have all US military personnel out by 1965. In proof he was killed by a conspiracy another declaration was made by LBJ the day prior to JFK's assassination reversing JFK's order to pull US forces out of Nam and this was the prelude to the Vietnam war. This was rubber stamped by Johnson a couple of days after JFK's murder but conveniently for Johnson not implemented until 1965 after LBJ won the 1964 election.
In touch of irony Dwight Eisenhower John Kennedy's predecessor as US president warned the American people in his farewell address against the influence of what he referred to as the military industrial complex ie an unholy alliance of bankers arms makers intelligence services and warmongering politicians like Johnson
Nixon and opposition to the Nam war by Martin Luther King and Bobby Kennedy also lead to these two war opponents being assassinated.
So the arms makers a few bent politicians made loads of dollars out of Nam. The real winners however were indeed the bankers who's coffers were filled with billions of USD. Oh but the loser was dear old Uncle Sam who lost a full scale war for the first time and the thousands of US Vietnam vets who through no real
fault of their own were shunned and treated as outcasts by hawk and dove alike
It was Ronnie actually.
I believe they shared a gay lover who was a notorious house burgler.
Boothby once boasted if there was anyone he didn't like he'd send this bloke round to turn over their gaffs.
Nice fella dont you think.
Very good question Fred. If pushed for an answer to that I'd have to say either Attlee Bevin or Beaverbrook.
Certainly Attlee got on with the job without the razzamatazz of Churchill and in my book was the best and most decisive post war PM Bevin was a great motivator and leader of the working classes and had the common touch and Beaverbrook delivered the goods when they were needed most.
I'm certain when push came to shove none of these three would have been appeasers.
"Firstly the US never took over escort duties in the Western Approaches."
Oh yes the US Navy did take over escort duties in the western Atlantic...... In May 1941 the US Navy became a British ally in the struggle in the Atlantic.
By taking over escort duties in the western Atlantic it became involved in a shooting war with Germany and on Halloween 1941while escorting a British convoy, an American warship, the US naval destroyer Reuben James was torpedoed and sunk by the German Uboat U562.
US Naval escort duties in the western Atlantic had been the most that the President could do to bring the USA into the war on the British side. In the aftermath of the strike on Pearl Harbour and in retaliation for the US Naval support in the western Atlantic, on 11th December 1941 Adolf Hitler declared war on the United States of America……..